EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW UNPACKING THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF ISRAEL’S INVASION ACROSS THE U.S.
June 16, 2024I sat down with legendary civil and human rights advocate, Dr James Zogby, Founder and President of the Arab American Institute, during my recent trip to Washington D.C. to discuss the war on Gaza and what he sees are the main obstacles to ending the hostilities that have left more than 36,000, mostly civilians, dead after more than eight months of a genocidal war waged by Israel against the Palestinians.
During the interview, I ask Dr Zogby why America, as the ”Superpower”, doesn’t just force Israel to stop. His response: ”Because IT CAN’T!”
Zogby is one of the most respected pro-Palestine lobbyists in D.C. having worked with every US Administration since President Carter in the 1970s, and since October 7th, he has been in constant discussions with Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Secretary of Justice Merrick Garland, over America’s flawed foreign policy.
Dr Zogby surmises that the Biden Administration’s attitude and response to the war on Gaza: ”Is going to be a stain on Israeli history, on American history, and American consciousness. It’s going to take a generation to erase it.”
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English Script:
Chapter One: ISRAEL & AMERICA ON PALESTINE – “NO IDEA WHERE THEY ARE HEADED BUT MAKING GOOD TIME!”
Daizy: Hi, I’m in Washington, D.C., and I have the opportunity to meet with a legend in D.C. and in American civil rights and advocacy, Dr. James Zogby, and we are at his home, and I wanted to take the opportunity to ask him about the Palestinian situation. He’s an expert. He’s been working on this for more than 60 years I’d say. The president of the Arab American Institute and someone who’s worked with every political administration, presidential administration since the 1970s, I think starting with Jimmy Carter to today. A man who knows what’s going on behind the scenes and also across the world. And it’s my pleasure to say hi to you.
James Zogby: Thank you so much.
Daizy: I wanted to ask you if you can tell us what you think the reality is of what the American administration is trying to achieve with its policies on Israel and the Palestinians, and where we stand today as a humanity.
James Zogby: I wrote an article a few weeks back, Daizy, based on a story that my wife’s family would tell. The story is my father-in-law was driving on the Long Island Expressway and it was normally, it’s normally very crowded, but there were no cars and he’s just zipping along. And my mother-in-law said to him, “Honey, do you have any idea where we’re going? And he said, “I have no idea where we’re going, but I’m making great time.” And I think of this administration and Netanyahu and his government in that vein. I don’t think they have a clue where they’re going. They’re wreaking destruction. It started off as vengeance. It started off on the U.S. side as well. We’ve got to give Israel this opportunity to wreak havoc. And, and it’s gone from there. And I don’t think either the Israelis or the U.S. have any idea where they’re going, what they’re doing. And frankly, when you talk to them, they say, oh yes, it’s intolerable. We say, then end it. And they say, well, that’s intolerable, too, because we can’t tell the Israelis to stop.
CHAPTER TWO: BACKLASH FROM YOUNG VOTERS OVER GAZA COULD COST BIDEN THE ELECTION
Daizy: You’re having meetings with the administration, different departments. Can you give us an insight on what those conversations are and if there is serious endeavors behind the scenes to pull Israel into line?
James Zogby: I don’t think so, because they know that Israel doesn’t respond to cajoling or to entreaties. And they are unwilling to pay what they feel is the political price that they pay by making a very serious effort to tell them to stop. But at the same time, they are now very clearly witnessing that there is going to be a backlash that may very well cost him re-election. For months now, since this got going, We’d say to them, you’re going to lose not just Arab votes, but in polling we did as early as November, we found that black voters, Asian voters, young voters significantly impacted by this. They’d say, oh no when it comes down to November and they have a binary choice, we know what they’ll do. They’ll choose Biden. I said, no, I’ve done this now since the Jackson campaigns in ‘84 and ‘88. And then with Bernie, they don’t. The binary choice for these groups is vote or not vote at all. Most of them will not vote at all. And these are voting groups that Biden cannot lose. He can’t lose young voters or black voters or Latino or Asian voters. They’ve already lost white working class voters. What’s left is what they called the Obama coalition. And he’s losing that. Not all of it. But if you lose 10% or 5% even of those groups in what is clearly close election states, then you’re in trouble. They don’t see it. When kids are getting arrested on campuses, when kids are walking out of graduations, even if it’s a small number, it’s enough of a number that it’s going to matter. And I just don’t think that they see that.
CHAPTER THREE: THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS STORY…MASSIVE CHANGE IS TAKING PLACE ACROSS AMERICA
Daizy: We’re looking at an institutional mindset towards the Zionist policy of annihilating the Palestinians. How do we change that?
James Zogby: There is the other side of this story, and that is that there’s very significant change taking place here in America, certainly on the Democratic side. Two thirds are opposed to what Israel is doing. Two thirds are dissatisfied with the policies of Joe Biden. We already have a situation where we’ve had some actions in Congress in which more than 80 Democrats opposed. Never had a number that large. We have senators, almost 40% of the Democrats in the Senate oppose what Israel is doing and oppose what the president is doing in sending more weapons. The fact is that it’s a growing movement and I don’t think it’s going to change. Thinking back where we were 40 years ago, 20 years ago, ten years ago. I saw things happen in the last couple of months that I never expected to happen in my lifetime. Used to be demonstrations in front of the White House were 50 people and it was “Carter, Carter, you should know, we support the PLO”. Now it’s tens of thousands of people, and Arabs are a small fraction of that group. It’s a lot of young people, but it’s the same people who demonstrated against the murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter. The same young people who demonstrated for women’s rights back when Trump was first elected, or who demonstrated against firearms and guns and wanted gun control after the Parkland shooting. I mean, this is a transformed political climate in America, and Gaza, and Palestinian rights are a part of that. And the thing is that these kids are not only pro-Palestinian in the sense that they oppose what Israel is doing, but they know the history. We talk to them. They know about colonialism. They know about settler colonialism. They know about Zionism. And they are as fluent on this issue as many Arabs are. And that’s not going to change.
Daizy: And many are Jews.
James Zogby: A significant, there’s a debate within the Jewish community that is as intense as the debate in the country as a whole. And I’m so proud to be able to work with these groups because these are kids who grew up in the Jewish world. They went to Jewish summer camp. They attempted to indoctrinate them and send them on trips to Israel. And they went and they came back saying what’s happening to Palestinians is horrible. And they see a policy unfolding that is deplorable. And they have become now the spearhead of much of the movement that is unfolding.
Daizy: Around the world.
James Zogby: There’s change, and I don’t think it’s going to change back.
CHAPTER FOUR: IT’S NOT ABOUT JEWS OR JUDAISM. IT’S ABOUT A RACIST GOVERNMENT POLICY THAT IS DEPLORABLE.
James Zogby: This is not about Jews. It’s not about Judaism. It’s about a policy of a government that is racist and deplorable and should be condemned. And it’s a problem of politics in Washington that is influenced by external actors, not just AIPAC, but even more significant, the fundamentalist Christian movement in America. And we need to address it as it is, not in some fictional mythological the Jews control because there are a significant number of Jews on the side of justice.
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CHAPTER FIVE: THE RISE OF ANTI-ZIONIST JUDAISM
Daizy: Have you ever witnessed in your decades working for change and promoting and advocating for Arab American rights, the rise of the Jewish community so coordinated and so strong and so clear about the anti-Zionist ideology?
James Zogby: When I started the Palestine Human Rights Campaign back in the mid seventies, we had Jewish supporters from a number of human rights groups, from a number of young Jewish groups. There were in the beginning, there was a New Jewish Agenda, there was Breira. The establishment crushed them. I mean, literally crushed them and silenced their voice, banned them from campuses. What’s different now is that the Jewish establishment can’t silence Jewish Voice for Peace, or if not now, they grew too fast, they’re too big. And the more they try to quash them, the stronger they get. So I wrote an article. Last week’s article I quoted, para-phrased Fayez Sayegh, the Palestinian intellectual, who said at one point, “when Israel appears to be its strongest, it’s actually at its weakest”. And I think that’s what we’re seeing right now. I mean, they are taking measures, the pro-Israel side in Congress to ban speech.
Daizy: Yes.
James Zogby: It’s McCarthyite practices. And that is yes, it’s a sign of strength. It’s also an indication of how weak they are.
Daizy: How scared they are.
James Zogby: They’re frightened to death because they’re losing everywhere. We’re winning this debate, and we just keep doing what we’re doing and they keep doing what they’re doing. They’re digging a hole awful deep.
CHAPTER SIX: WE HAVE TO FIGHT TO ENSURE THIS NEVER TURNS INTO ANTI-SEMITISM
Daizy: Just going back to the Jewish community around the world rising, do you think they are instrumental and have to be instrumental in the change because they are the community that Israel and Netanyahu are purporting to defend. And so having this other side of the Jewish community standing up and saying, no, this is wrong, they have to be the leaders of change within their community.
James Zogby: They have to change within their community. But let me make two points. One is, no, this is not an issue that will or should be solved by the Jewish community alone. This is not. This is our issue.
Daizy: And humanity you mean, all of humanity.
James Zogby: I mean, on the Arab side, we’re the victims in this. You know, this is not about like, “Oh I feel bad for them, they’re torn in anguish over”. This is not about them. It’s about us. It’s about people in Gaza. It’s not about the anguish of the Jewish community. But they do have to fight within their community. And we have to fight, like I said, to ensure that this never becomes anti-Semitism because it’s wrong, because it’s the best way for us to lose our argument. And three, because there is anti-Semitism, it’s real. People have done horrible things to the Jewish people, and I don’t want to see that happen again, and certainly not because of an issue we care about. You know, I firmly believe you never do to others what they do to you. You do to others what you want them to do to you. I don’t want to use bigotry or use money or power to hurt other people. That’s not the way that ultimately you build a moral society.
CHAPTER SEVEN: THIS IS NOT GOING AWAY!
IT’S A STAIN ON ISRAELI AND AMERICAN HISTORY!
Daizy: Do you have a fear that we the those defending and on the right side of history will give up? Do you have a concern that we’re going to get tired?
James Zogby: I don’t think it’s possible. I don’t think it’s possible. I think there are individuals who would give up. But when a cause is just, people will come forward and they have come forward. And when outrages occur, people will come forward and they have come forward. And it’s not as if people in Gaza are going to just evaporate and no one will pay attention. This is not going away. It’s actually one converts to a cause who will now study even more deeply what happened in ’48, What happened in 1917 and 1921? There are now, people are going to know about Balfour and Sykes-Picot and about the Peel Commission and about the Great Revolt in 1936-1939. That’s all going to become known to a generation that didn’t know about it. And so, no, this is not going to go. There’s a building process in consciousness. Consciousness doesn’t just evaporate. It grows. And there was no consciousness of this. Now there is among many more people than ever before. And it’s going to be a stain on Israeli history and American history, American consciousness that is going to take a generation to erase it. And there’s a generation committed to erasing that stain!
